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Post by Rob on Feb 23, 2004 13:26:42 GMT
FallenThis is pop for cam! Mike, i finally learnt how to bounce and went crazy on the vocals. I ended up laying 4 vocals on one track and think i must have about 10 in all on the 4 together! Enjoy. Rob
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Post by mcarp555 on Feb 23, 2004 14:26:55 GMT
Hey, I like it! You're showing a lot of progress in a short time as you unlock the real potential of the PS5 (and yourself in the process). This song doesn't need much more - maybe a bit of lead after the last verse before the fade, and I'd probably monkey with the mix a bit more, but it's a good solid tune with some well-played ideas in it.
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Post by latmat on Feb 23, 2004 14:48:55 GMT
Like Mike said some really cool Ideas, I really like the back up vocals, til the end, It sounds like it loses something there, I think like mike said If there was a nice lead there it would be cool.
Nice song, good job I can tell your thinking about the songs alot more now!
Cameron
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Post by Rob on Feb 23, 2004 15:52:12 GMT
Thanks lads. Yeah i can really feel the progress now. But how would i without you lot! I shall have another look and see what i can add to the lead...and although my first reaction was to ask the like of cam or stan...im going to give it a go myself....(then maybe i shall ask for help!).
By the way Mike, i was listeneing to some of your stuff last week, and noticed a style but couldnt place it. Anyhow as part of my education i listen to music that i missed out on and bought a load of neil young. bingo, bit of a fan are you?!
But so far as the mixing goes...in trouble. All tracks are unequed except for the lead vocal which i boosted. What is the process for mixing correctly? I mean I know this is something that takes years to perfect mike! and i know its not a one line answer...but is there an overview procedure that i can follow...cos at the moment i am totally clueless!! dunno where to start...
Thanks for taking the time to listen and read, and thanks in advance for any help you can provide on this mixing issue.
Rob
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Post by mcarp555 on Feb 23, 2004 16:16:45 GMT
Mixing is an art, which is about the best answer I can give you. It's like cooking, I suppose. For example, in the listen of this new song, I noted the following:
1. Drums struck me as a bit low. Or the bass was a bit upfront. I'd probably bring the drums up a tad and see how the EQ on the bass is.
2. The guitar was a bit upfront, which was okay, but... it's hard to describe, but it felt a little 'empty' behind it. That's about the best way I could put it. Might have been because the drums were in the back, but I got the impression of the vocal, guitar and bass being in the front line, the drums way back, and a lot of empty space between them. What do you think? It was most prominent in the beginning, and towards the end where I suggested a lead.
3. I'd EQ the backing vocals to soften them a bit, and add lots of reverb. That would both bring them farther back, and blend them together better.
That's all my subjective opinion. Cam (or anyone else) might hear different things. Bear in mind, this is very detailed critical commentary; I hear stuff like this all the time (usually in my own mixes). I'm only bringing it up to illustrate the point about mixes. Minor nitpicking doesn't detract from the fact that it's a great song/recording. Sometimes you have to look beyond the technical aspects. As your ear develops, you'll hear this stuff too. Listen to the radio or however you listen to music and try to nitpick it to death. Ask yourself, how could I improve this mix? Most people listen to a song as a single finished thing - I'm saying to train yourself, listen to music as mixes, performances, compositions, productions. Break it down.
And no, I don't listen to any Neil Young. I have CSN&Y's Greatest Hits and the wife listens to Decade, but that's about it. 95% of my style derives from one band, and they're from Liverpool. The rest is just 60's pop and classical.
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Post by Rob on Feb 23, 2004 16:32:39 GMT
Hey buddy, i really appreicate this advice. this is wonderful. you read between the lines of my plea for help cos this is the level of critique i was looking for. I shall follow your advice to the letter.
I was listeneing to " crazy horse " which has a few mellow tracks that sound identical to a couple of your latest tracks, lyric style, the voice...hmm...interesting though...i thought i was spot on....liverpool eh!? now i wonder...! "rubber soul" was my first record i owned. gone through countless copies of since. just got another cd of it recently. and im sure i will need another at some point.
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Post by Rob on Feb 23, 2004 17:17:52 GMT
Mike, actually i practiced the delay and copy for the guitar track and panned left and right. it gave a full professional sound, but required 2 tracks. i needed a track for bass/strings and then 2 tracks for vocals...so i deleted the second guitar track. In addition to the mixing advice that i shall incorporate, would you think that its worth bouncing somrthing somewhere to create new track for guitars?
Currently 1. keyboard (strings and bass) 2. guitars 3. backing vocals 4. vocal (lead guitar to be added)
Or do you think that i can get a good mix by equing?
thanks in advance, Rob
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Post by latmat on Feb 23, 2004 17:21:18 GMT
Yeah you got to watch your self around mike specially when The Beatles are concerned, I made that mistake once already ![:-X](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/lipssealed.png) OK Im listening to the mix now, Mike Is right the drums need to come up abit, Guitar needs more ommph, keep the lead vocal down a bit, it gets a little loud but it gets better towards the end. Its very raw sounding still, theres some really really good moments in the back up vocals but like I said, I feel the end unravels. I look forward to hearing your new mix, Im pretty much in the same boat as mike on this one, though I like a thick crashing Guitar tone ;D All in my opinion, just remember not to over mix. Its ussually minor adjustments that do the trick. I was like you I didnt mix at all for the first bit (Well Alittle : ![:))](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cheesy.png) but then I started to over mix until recently, but mike helped me get out of that rut! Im still tempted too though
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Post by mcarp555 on Feb 23, 2004 17:46:04 GMT
Rob, I'd mess around with the EQ & reverb first, since it's non-destructive. If you want to spend the time on it, you could copy the files to the computer first for safekeeping, then try bouncing 1-3 to two tracks. I always like leaving the vocal out of a bounce if possible.
This is where the economy of only 4 tracks pushes you to plan your mixes in advance. What you could have done is:
1. bass/strings 2. guitar left 3. guitar right (delayed) 4. open
Then bounce all three tracks down to two. Bass & strings in the center, guitars panned hard left & right with delay. Then backing vocals on the two empty tracks, bounced down to 1, leaving one empty track for lead vocal/solo. I'm not saying it's the only right way, or the way you're going about it now isn't going to achieve a good result (it's pretty good as it is). But planning ahead can sometimes keep you from painting yourself in a musical corner, so to speak.
Look at all the fun you're having, compared to a few months ago!
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Post by latmat on Feb 23, 2004 17:57:16 GMT
I know, Now that I know how to bounce its very nice! But Id be happy to give up bouncing for more tracks ;D
Id love to add backing vocals, harmonies all sorts of stuff but I like being in control of the instruments also, you lose so much bouncing. But for doing stereo type effects its very handy! I suggest as mike did to make a backup first if you havent before you start bouncing all over cause its a pain to have to rerecord everything. I know you dont have a comp. at home so you may want to hold off!
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Post by mcarp555 on Feb 23, 2004 18:02:46 GMT
Cam - True true, but I firmly believe that having to deal with only 4 tracks makes you better at recording. Ultimately when you go on to a larger machine, your experience in planning mixes & bounces will let you utilize more tracks much better than would otherwise be the case.
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Gamma
Gold Record Member
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Posts: 149
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Post by Gamma on Feb 23, 2004 18:28:20 GMT
Hey Rob!
The technicall was discussed deeply (for the good of you and of all other pupils like myself). Maybe Mike should change his image from the T shirt to Smurf Dad or something...
Any way, bottom line is I really liked the song. Best thing I can tell you is that I felt like listening again. Good job Rob!
Gamma
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Post by Rob on Feb 23, 2004 18:46:50 GMT
thanks mike, cam. hey mike, you know i tried to do that, but i just couldnt manage it! i can bounce two tracks together (like the two guitars) and then copy and paste to get the delay in...but then with two guitar tracks and the bass as you described...how do i get them onto two tracks...with the bass in middle and guitars on outside... ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) hey gamma, thanks! that is the key! the second listen!
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Post by mcarp555 on Feb 23, 2004 21:13:36 GMT
Hey, I liked the song too! We just sidetracked on these tech issues.
What you do is, copy the guitar, delay it, etc. set up the mix with the guitars panned hard left & right, bass/strings in the middle, like you would for a final mix. Then you bounce all three to two tracks. Take these two new tracks (after doing the bounce) and hard pan them left & right. This will restore the original pan of the three tracks - guitars hard left & right, bass/strings in the middle.
It's just that simple.
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Post by Rob on Feb 24, 2004 13:38:58 GMT
Hey, I hope you like it better today. I set all the eq back to default and all slider levels to the same level, inculding the drums and added the lead...well sort of lead! It sounds better, but this mixing element is goin to take some time for me to pick up. I know what i want to hear, just gotta practice ...i like the cooking analogy, i go much easier on the garlic these days!
Thanks for all the comments, its much better for it, group effort again.
Rob
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